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The NBN is a farce

And back to my favourite subject the Not Bloody Needed network

What an unfortunate state of affairs when people believe the spiel about the NBN in the same as they did with man made Global Warming. Senator Conroy made this promise in a media release in 2007

There is a town named North Arm cove it is 204 kms North of Sydney

And 60.6km North of Newcastle.

This makes it a truly Regional and remote location right?

No? then how did this community manage to be one of this Government's 7% that will not get digital to their door? In fact the cables being rolled out along the highway will stop only 5kms from this community?

Somehow though they are one of these targeted 7%, it seems that we will see a far greater number than 7% using Satellite, and it will not be one of the high tech super fast satellite as seen overseas.

So what else can we believe, the NBN being the best technology available. No, it isn't this either... a report claimed the national broadband network would cost taxpayers 24 times more than South Korea's network for one-tenth the speed.

I wonder what else seems to be incorrect?

Government committed to FTTN national network

Senator Stephen Conroy, Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy today said that Labor is committed to building a national high-speed broadband fibre‑to‑the‑node network.

The new network will deliver minimum broadband speeds, 40 times faster than current speeds to 98 per cent of Australians. The remaining two per cent of Australians will receive a standard of service that is as close as possible to that offered by the new network, and will be delivered by the best available wireless, microwave and satellite technologies.

“This new network will jump Australia into the 21^st century,” said Senator Conroy.

“It will be open access, promote competition and put downward pressure on consumer prices.

“We will hold an open and transparent process to determine who will build the network with our ambition being to complete the process by the end of June next year.

“We expect that there will be much public commentary, jockeying and lobbying from parties as they work to convince the Government that they are best placed to build the new network and seek the terms that are most favourable to them,” said Senator Conroy.

So just how fast is fast, at the moment I have a provider that i hit enter and if I blink the new page has arrived. yet they claim NBN will give me faster? Why and at what cost. I don't need a network that gives me the page I was thinking of opening, and I really don't want it at the cost of a Network monopoly nor by losing my analogue telephone service in favour of a digital one that means while there is electricity we will have a phone. This is a step back surely. If they added a feature where we could Taser the overseas cold caller who are forever offering us our fortune, then we might have a deal. But what we are going to be subject to is a network where a carefully planned terrorist attack will leave us with NO telecommunications, or at the mercy of whoever takes over the NBN whether it is for the purposes of ransom, or a terrorist attack, or someone or a Govt wishing to take control of this country, they can have control of all our services in one neat package of brittle fibre optics package.

Now of course, we hear that the cyclone has damaged cables rolled out already, most of the cables are finding their way into overhead cables. which as they claimed there would be 25% only above ground indicates a communication problem I think.

And with an election on the horizon, a budget surplus to deliver and the need to begin preparing a case to tap private markets for around $13 billion in the next phase of the NBN, the next few years are shaping up as crucial for the government.

Timing the release of the extended summary of the NBN business plan in the week before Christmas (after parliament had broken up for the year) probably resulted in minimal scrutiny of the plan. But given the business plan forms the basis for the project’s commercial viability – keeping it treated as an investment and therefore off budget – its detail probably deserved greater attention.

I can assert this time, there will be no excuses, for we cannot afford this NBN while there is still so much of Qld needs rebuilding, while we still have a Healthcare Crisis and while this Govt is determined to run us into the ground.

In a country as big as Australia there are many areas where it is not commercially attractive to build a network. The NBN will have national scale that will allow it to provide services to both profitable and high cost areas. NBN Co has developed a business case which indicates that it can build the network and still make an acceptable return on the government’s investment over the life of the network.

Now this Publicly owned NBNco and the PM won't provide us with a full business analysis, nor a cost benefit analysis. Why ?....easy says the PM it can't release the information due to Cabinet confidentiality!!

The issue of Cabinet confidentiality is contested and impacts on the ability of parliament to access certain information. Over recent years there has been some statutory reform and changing judicial interpretation concerning the accessibility of Cabinet documents. There have also been a number of parliamentary inquiries concerning, among other things, the power of parliament to order the production of Cabinet documents. This follows government decisions to withhold certain information from parliament on the grounds of Cabinet confidentiality. This paper focuses on the confidentiality of Cabinet documents covering the concept of Cabinet confidentiality, its origins and evolution and issues relating to cabinet confidentiality.

So this relates to documents held by Cabinet. But what about providing the 'PUBLIC' with a 'Cost Benefit Analysis' from the publicly owned company NBNco????? Or is it suggested any working or policy documents in regard to the NBN are kept confidential by the Cabinet even though it is our money being thrown at the NBN, it is a company owned by the taxpayer, and it is our Freedom of speech most under threat ?????

So what is it, report claimed the national broadband network would cost taxpayers 24 times more than South Korea's network for one-tenth the speed.

Well I guess the report says it all and below is the rest of this article

The $36 billion national broadband network yesterday came under attack in a global survey that ranked Australia below many of its peers because of the project's "exorbitant" price tag.

Despite promising very high speeds, the controversial network lagged behind the plans of eight other countries because of the cost imposed on taxpayers, the right-leaning Economist Intelligence Unit found.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Phillip Watson on August 24, 2011 at 5:07pm

The 700MHz/white space/super WiFi would be a good solution for the above, but as I said a niche rather than a potential replacement for the NBN. Such a system wouldn't have the bandwidth capacity to support the primary usage of everyone in range of it. I'm certainly not saying it won't be any good, I'm just saying it's not a substitute for the NBN or other high capacity networks.

All of these technologies - Fibre, WiFi, Mobile - are complementary. Each has its uses, and generally one is not a replacement for another. WiFi needs a fast fixed network to connect to (ie the NBN or similar). 3G/4G/LTE/WiMax cellular networks are incapable of replacing the fixed-based networks or WiFi, because of capacity constraints.

The pro-NBN people (and the telco sector for that matter) aren't saying we don't need a wireless network. They are saying we need a fast fixed network as well. To put it as simply as possible, the NBN is just a replacement for the old copper and cable networks, designed to do the 'heavy lifting' of our broadband needs. Wireless tech will continue to evolve along side it. Some of it will connect to the NBN (eg WiFi), while other wireless tech will supply the demand for true mobility (eg 3G/NextG/4G/LTE etc).

Curious...when you say you have FTTN, are you counting the exchange as your node, or are you on a RIM system? Either way, that's not really FTTN as it's generally accepted. If we get an FTTN system in Australia (as being proposed by Turnbull), it will be very different to the current exchange/RIM system.

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Permalink Reply by Laurel Ender on August 24, 2011 at 11:37pm

anyone read that the suppliers of NBN now want to have the right to INCREASE the supply cost at will?

found a snip in ...umm Business spectator I think it was.

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Permalink Reply by Phillip Watson on August 25, 2011 at 9:58am

Laurel V said:

anyone read that the suppliers of NBN now want to have the right to INCREASE the supply cost at will?

found a snip in ...umm Business spectator I think it was.

That's not quite true. The story is a beatup by Malcolm Turnbull, which is referencing an NBN discussion paper that they released for comment a month ago in relation to their obligations in relation to pricing etc for the next 30 years.

The paper actually specifies the following, in relation to NBN’s wholesale pricing:

1. For the first 5 years, there can be no increase in price whatsoever for the AVC* entry speed (currently 12/1Mbps) or the most popular speed (whatever that may be). There can also be no increase in the CVC* component. (See below for an brief explanation of AVC and CVC)

2. For the next 25 years, the price of the entry speed (currently 12/1), the most popular speed (whatever that may be), and the CVC charge can be increased by no more than half of the CPI increase in any year. Cumulative increases are not permitted. NBN Co can apply to vary the contents of the “Price controlled product basket”, but any change must first be approved by the ACCC. Products outside the “price controlled basket” may be increased at a maximum of CPI+5%, but not if it would lead to the NBN making a return of greater than 7% (ie break even).

3. The NBN is not permitted to make a "profit". It must limit its revenue so that it does no more than break even, which means about a 7% return to enable the repaying of its debt.

This means that in real terms, the monthly price of the NBN service will fall each year by at least 50% of the CPI for the majority of users for at least the next 30 years.

http://nbnconcerns.wordpress.com/2011/08/23/nbn-price-increases/

*AVC and CVC:

The NBN wholesale pricing charged to ISPs is made up of two major components, the AVC and the CVC. Each speed tier has a different AVC cost (eg: $24 for 12Mbps, $34 for 50Mbps). The CVC is a flat rate charged to internet providers based on the total speed they purchase to be shared by all of their customers. NBN Co estimate that the CVC component of their pricing typically accounts for between 1 and 3 dollars of the ISP’s cost to provide you with a service. This CVC component is part of the “price-controlled basket” irrespective of what user speed is chosen.

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Permalink Reply by Phillip Watson on June 12, 2012 at 2:13pm

Jan Courtney said:

Good afternoon all - had to dig up an oldie in order not to start multiple discussions on the one topic.

A couple of weeks ago, the techs came and fed the cable for the NBN through the "channels" that the phone cables use. Since then I have been having a lot of trouble with my internet connection dropping out, sometimes just for a minute or two, others for half an hour or so. It's very frustrating, could it be the NBN cables messing up the connection ? or is it likely to be something else ? One of our neighbours if having the same problem with their entire wireless set up including their ipad which seems strange.

Any answers anyone ?

Unlikely, as the fibre would not interfere.....unless they damaged some of the old connections as they dragged the cables through the pits (I am assuming that you mean the techs were feeding the cables through the outside Telstra trenches rather than actually into your house?).

Can you be a bit more specific about your neighbour and your connections. Is their (I assume) ADSL staying up, and only the wireless part having problems, or is their ADSL dropping out too?

When your ADSL drops out, does the phone line still work? Is it crackley? Have you had much rain lately?

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Permalink Reply by Phillip Watson on June 12, 2012 at 4:33pm

Good chance it's the rain Jan. ADSL can be very fussy about non-perfect connections, so if the rain has gotten in it can easily make it drop out and/or slow down. If you put a report in to Telstra they should sort it out either way.

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Permalink Reply by Phillip Watson on June 12, 2012 at 5:41pm

For those interested, there is an NBN Q&A/info session tonight (12th June) at 7pm via a webcast. They have been asking people to submit questions over the last couple of weeks.

Not sure if there is any limit to the number of users, but you have to register to watch it:

http://webcast.viostream.com/?viocast=5605&auth=4ebc7a4a-0e21-4...

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Permalink Reply by Ian Strawbridge on August 9, 2012 at 2:13pm

Its even worse than you realise, NBN apart from being a total waste of $$$ (cause we already have a national optic fibre backbone - oh, didn't they mention that?) it is more about control. Government control of all things internet and the content you can see or don't see if it is deemed "inappropriate" by some paper pusher.

Good luck...

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Permalink Reply by Ian Strawbridge on August 9, 2012 at 2:15pm

Have a look at the microsoft vhf band wireless solution (working right now!) - oh oops we sold that band - oh never mind...

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Permalink Reply by Phillip Watson on August 9, 2012 at 2:54pm

Ian Strawbridge said:

Its even worse than you realise, NBN apart from being a total waste of $$$ (cause we already have a national optic fibre backbone - oh, didn't they mention that?) it is more about control. Government control of all things internet and the content you can see or don't see if it is deemed "inappropriate" by some paper pusher.

Good luck...

Ian,

The NBN doesn't replace the existing optical fibre "backbone". The NBN is really only placing optical fibre (or wireless or sat) between the premises and a point of interconnect, which will usually be an existing Telstra exchange. Although there are currently about 5000 exchanges nationwide, and there will only be 121 POI. From the POI onwards, the existing fibre "backbones" will be used, plus additional "backbones" will probably be installed by competing ISPs to each POI.

As for the "Govt control". The NBN is a "dumb" layer 2 network. NBN Co (or the Govt) cannot see what sites you are visiting, not can they control what gets through. It is only your ISP that can potentially see what sites you visit and control access to them.

If you use a secure connection, then they cannot see the actual data being transmitted, only the site address. Going further, if you use a secure proxy server to obscure the website you are visiting, then your ISP can only see the address of the proxy, they cannot see the actual site your are visiting or the data being transmitted.

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Permalink Reply by Phillip Watson on August 9, 2012 at 3:16pm

Ian Strawbridge said:

Have a look at the microsoft vhf band wireless solution (working right now!) - oh oops we sold that band - oh never mind...

As I have repeated many times, there is no wireless technology that can match optical fibre for capacity. It's basic physics. The bandwidth available in the light spectrum is orders of magnitude larger than the radio spectrum. Additionally, only a very small portion of the radio spectrum is available for use, while the closed nasture of optical fibre means almost all of the light spectrum can be used with fibre. Also, air is lossy while glass is not.

There is not a single country or telco anywhere in the World proposing to replace their urban fixed networks with wireless, while there are over 50 countries currently rolling out assorted levels of fibre-to-the-premises networks.

Internet giant Google have recently announced that they are rolling out a FTTP network in Kansas. They released a great little promo video for it:

Microsoft's VHF WiFi is not an alternative to optical fibre, it's a complementary technology with an extremely small amount of available bandwidth, supporting an extremely small number of users. Microsoft actually back the NBN:

Dr Gordon Bell (Head of Research at Microsoft USA): "The NBN is essential infrastructure that needs to be put in place. I admire Australia for moving ahead to build such a network.” [ref]

Microsoft Australia statement: “[TheNBN] will be critical in the years ahead and essential for reducing costs in health and education service delivery. It will also contribute to overcoming the tyranny of distance that exists in rural and regional Australia” [ref]

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Permalink Reply by Bob Stewart on August 11, 2012 at 10:22am

"The NBN has the potential to save money on, and improve, many other sectors of the community which is one of the reasons I'm so in favour of it. It really does have the potential to revolutionize education, for example."

It was Access Economics who launched this grandiosity with a bafflegab of political proportions in making the the grand prophecy that 'One of the implications of the NBN is that it will enable a more competitive economy, a more dynamic economy throughout the whole economy"

So now we have one more example, education. I suppose that can be included in "implications". But what "potential"? Where is money "saved"? What other sector will be "improved"? How does the NBN "revolutionize" education?" I am one big skeptic beyond anything more than 24/7 TV. Everything else is "if", "could" ,"would", "perhaps","may" and "potential" of unknown definition
Bob Stewart

Phillip Watson said:

John Mikkelsen said:

Whichever way you shake the sauce bottle there are many more pressing infrastructure and other needs (health for one) which would benefit from the estimated $40 billion or $36 billion cost (probably a lot more than that) of the NBN roll-out. Gillard's mob couldn't even organise pink batts in the ceilings, how could anyone expect them to deliver this on time or on budget?

I think you could always find uses for Government funds that are "more pressing" than a lot of other programs. How much do we give to the Arts, for example?

The Govt contribution to the NBN is about $27.5bn over the 10 years build. During that same 10 years, Australian Governments will spend about $1Trillion on public health, $500Billion on public education, and $220Billion on Defence.

The NBN has the potential to save money on, and improve, many other sectors of the community which is one of the reasons I'm so in favour of it. It really does have the potential to revolutionise education, for example. Imagine no longer having a "school of the air", but instead having remote communities able to access high definition video classrooms, and really improve the education opportunities of remote students. That's just one example off the top of my head.

I think the concern about the Govt ability to deliver is a valid one, but having researched the people who have been appointed to build the NBN, I am very confident in their ability to do so. Remember, this isn't a Govt department doing it, and the NBN Co has some very serious and experienced talent. So long as the Govt stay out of the details (so far, so good), I have great confidence that it will be a very good network.

Will it be on time? Probably not. Most large projects either public or private run over time. But I'm not hugely worried about that. Better a late network than none at all. But I'd expect it to be maybe a year or two late, at worst.

On budget? I think it will be pretty close. They have already locked in the major components (hardware, fibre cable, wireless spectrum) and also have a deal with unions to limit pay rises for the construction workers. KPMG reviewed the costings, and backed them. The Tasmanian trial was on time and under budget. The mainland trial sites are ahead of time (They are now slated for testing in April, instead of June). I haven't seen any mention of the cost being over or under budget.

The major risk I can see is if there is a labour shortage, which could cause a blowout and delays.

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Permalink Reply by Phillip Watson on August 11, 2012 at 11:30am

Bob Stewart said:

"The NBN has the potential to save money on, and improve, many other sectors of the community which is one of the reasons I'm so in favour of it. It really does have the potential to revolutionize education, for example."

It was Access Economics who launched this grandiosity with a bafflegab of political proportions in making the the grand prophecy that 'One of the implications of the NBN is that it will enable a more competitive economy, a more dynamic economy throughout the whole economy"

So now we have one more example, education. I suppose that can be included in "implications". But what "potential"? Where is money "saved"? What other sector will be "improved"? How does the NBN "revolutionize" education?" I am one big skeptic beyond anything more than 24/7 TV. Everything else is "if", "could" ,"would", "perhaps","may" and "potential" of unknown definition
Bob Stewart

Here's a few education examples off the top of my head....

Many high schools are unable to offer every subject they would like because of a lack of interested students. This means that many students miss out on being able to study their subject of choice, or in some rare cases they are bussed to another school to study that topic. However, with access to very high speed broadband such as the NBN, students in this case could "sit in" on a lesson being taught at another school, with full interactivity with the teacher at that school. Such interactivity is not possible over the copper network due to slow upstream speeds, while fibre could easily support 20 simultaneous HD video streams in and out of each school.

This example not only improves education, but can also save money. Instead of a 10 high schools employing a French language teacher for 10 students each, schools could pool their resources and have 20 in each class. Thus they could either save that money, or spend the same amount of money but offer many more subjects.

Likewise, a student who must remain at home for whatever reason (such as a contagious illness for example), could use their home NBN connection to still attend important lessons.

Students could attend virtual tours of overseas museums etc, and receive interactive lectures from experts unable to attend their school.

There are quite a few videos about the education potential of ubiquitous very fast BBHere are a few: